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American Sheepdog Online CCW Resource Magazine - Debate with an Anti-Gunner!
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  • Quote

    ASD Quote

    “The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles.”

    ―Jeff Cooper, Art of the Rifle

  • Debate with an Anti-Gunner!

    I recently came across an "Anti-Gunner" who was willing to have an intelligent debate with me about guns and gun control. I told the Anti-Gunner, named Todd, that I wanted to debate him over the email so we both would have time to think about our arguments and also so that I could publish the conversation on americansheepdog.com. He said that he would agree on one condition: I have to promise to post the entire conversation unedited on my "gun nut" website no matter who wins the debate. He said he didn’t want me backing out when he "schooled" me. I told him I agreed as long as it was an intelligent debate and not a bunch of cheap name calling and fake statistics. We both agreed to the terms and proceeded...



    Me- First of all I would like to thank you for taking the time to do this with me.

    Todd- No problem, I am looking forward to it. I have tried to debate people on this in the past but it seems that most of the people on the pro-gun side strongly believe that guns are a good thing but they don’t know the facts to back it up.

    Me- I have had the same experience with anti-gun folks. I guess that is just people in general. They hear the arguments and they make up their mind based on the facts presented to them. They are firm in their beliefs but over time they forget the reasons or they are just incapable of presenting their beliefs in conversation. I don’t think for the most part, that people on either side of this issue, or any other issue, just believe something for the heck of it, they just don’t know how to articulate it a fluidly as the person who explained it to them.

    Todd- Well said. There are people though, who just believe something because they are told to or because their political party of choice tells them to.

    Me- That is true on both sides of the issue. Let me ask you to start, what is your stance on guns?

    Todd- They kill people. Killing people is bad, therefore, guns are bad. I don’t mean to be simplistic but surely even a child can follow that logic. All of the gun arguments for me can be boiled down to this.

    Me- Do you own any guns?

    Todd- No. I got a BB gun from my grandpa when I was 14 if that counts. It would be a bit hypocritical if I did wouldn’t it?

    Me- Yes, it would. You would be amazed at the number of politicians and celebrities that are anti-gun yet they own guns or employ bodyguards with guns. Take the guy who runs the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. His activist wife bought James Brady Jr. a Remington .30-06, complete with scope!

    Todd- I actually heard about that and yes, it angered me. They should be more conscious of all the people watching them, waiting for them to make a mistake and use it as ammo (no pun intended) against the rest of us.

    Me- You said earlier that guns kill people. You said that it was the basis of your beliefs. I would like to point out that the very base of your belief is flawed, and like a tree, if the roots are rotten, then the whole tree is dead. Guns do not kill people. A gun requires that a person aim the gun at someone and pull the trigger. The gun has no intentions. It is a lifeless tool. It cannot kill someone.

    If a man shoots another man with a gun, does the gun go to prison? I don’t mean to be simplistic but surely even a child can follow that logic.

    Todd- Touché. That is, however, just semantics. You know what I meant when I said that.

    Me- No I didn't. Please explain it to me.

    Todd- Would the guy who shot the other guy you mentioned above been able to kill him without a gun? Would their have been a shooting at all? I know, I know, he could have stabbed him or hit him on the head with a rock, but he would not have been able to kill him so easily without the gun. He might not have killed him at all without the gun. What if the guy he wanted dead was bigger than him? He might not have been able to kill him any other way.

    Me- I am more concerned for the victim here. What if there were no guns but the attacker was bigger? Then what? If only there were some way the smaller guy could defend himself? Some sort of weapon he could defend himself with that would make their differences in size meaningless...

    Todd- So you propose a shoot out as a good solution?

    Me- So you propose the big guys bludgeoning the life out of the little guys as a better solution?

    Todd- There has to be a better way to handle a situation like that, that doesn’t involve a bloody shoot out in the street that could possible injure innocent bystanders.

    Me- There is. Lets say the 1st guy wants the 2nd guy dead. He caresses the weapon in his hand and thinks about killing him, but he doesn’t.

    Why?
    Because in their world, law abiding citizens can carry guns. If he tries to kill the guy he might wind up dead himself. If he succeeds in surprising the guy and killing him one of the "innocent bystanders" might pull their gun and kill him. The potential killer decides not to commit the crime out of fear of his own demise.

    Does this sound crazy to you? Well consider this, everywhere citizens are allowed to carry guns in this country the crime rate continues to drop. Look it up yourself if you don’t believe me. Guns in the hands of the good guys equals less crime. You can come up with all the hypotheticals and gut feelings and I wish scenarios you like but I am dealing in FACT. More guns = less crime.

    Todd- I have a hard time believing that throwing in more guns in the situation will create less violence. It isn’t logical.

    Me- Not so fast my friend. What I said was FACT. What you choose to believe or not believe, no matter how logical it may seem, has no bearing on truth. Look it up. As I said before, I am dealing in FACT not FEELINGS.







    Me- Hello?

    Todd- I am still here, sorry to take so long to reply, I was looking it up.

    Me- Not trying to rush you, take your time.

    Todd-I must admit that you make a good point. Having said that, and I am not trying to be difficult here, but I don’t entirely trust statistics. Statistics can be twisted and manipulated.

    Me- Fine. Lets move on and leave the statistics alone for the time being. How do you feel about gun free zones?

    Todd- They serve their purpose. There are some places where guns shouldn't be. There is no need for them and they would only create a dangerous environment. Airports and schools, government buildings etc are no place for guns. I actually feel like there should be more gun free zones. Pretty much anywhere there are a lot of people milling around. Malls, theatres, amusement parks, etc. Even if someone had a lawful gun in those areas, what could they do with it? If they shot it off they could hit a lot of people.

    Me- Have you ever smoked weed?

    Todd- Do I sound high to you?

    Me- No... well kind of :). I'm actually trying to make a point, I mean no offense.

    Todd- Yes. I did a few times in collage.

    Me- I don’t believe you.

    Todd- ?

    Me- That’s impossible. You couldn’t possible have ever smoked weed. It is against the law. The law says you cannot use weed so how could you possible have used it?

    Todd- I broke the law.

    Me- If you set up a gun free zone and someone came in with a gun, would they be breaking the law?

    Todd- Yes...

    Me- So who brings a gun into a gun free zone?

    Todd- A criminal.

    Me- And who does not?

    Todd- I guess non-criminals.

    Me- So who does the Gun free zone keep from bringing guns in?

    Todd- They’re supposed to keep everyone from bringing a gun in.

    Me- Columbine, Virginia Tech, Ft Hood, Those gun free zones didn’t work did they? Imagine you are a disturbed person. You decide for whatever insane reason that you want to kill a bunch of people. Where would you go? Would you go to a police station where everyone is armed? Would you go to a gun show? Not likely. You would probably go to a gun free zone. Nobody shooting back at you there. Even if you have a death wish you still want to take out as many folks as possible. The only place to do that is in a gun free zone. If you go to the mall, someone will probably have a gun to shoot back. Depending on your state, A bunch of people may shoot back. Gun free zones are death traps.

    Todd- Not if they have metal detectors.

    Me- C'mon Todd. A gunman couldn’t shoot through an unarmed security guard?

    Todd- So give the security guard a gun.

    Me- Really?! That’s your idea to make gun free zones safer?! Add a gun? When we started this I didn’t think you would come around so easily!!

    Todd- I am not talking about arming every one in the place just an armed guard to detour someone from blowing through the metal detector.

    Me- You think one guard would stop a guy with a machine gun?

    Todd- I don’t know, maybe two guys?

    Me- Basically what you are saying is that giving guns to good guys is really the only way to stop bad guys. Only problem is that once you start handing out guns to guards its not really gun free anymore.
    What do you do if the guard goes off the deep end and starts shooting folks?

    Todd- You can always what if anything to death. I don’t make it a habit of playing the what if game as it never leads to the truth.

    Me- I have to disagree. I think the "what if" game is often the only way to find truth. Humor me.
    What do you do if the guard goes off the deep end and starts shooting folks?

    Todd- There is nothing you can do. Wait for the cops I guess. Sometimes bad things happen and there is nothing you can do.

    Me- But there is something you can do. Take down the "Gun free zone" sign and burn it. first the crazy probably wouldn’t come there to start with and second, if he does, he will not get very far before he is shot down. Tell me, What good do the gun free zones do if the bad guys can just ignore them? Who is protected?

    Todd- I have been in dozens of gun free zones and I have never been shot. I guess I was pretty well protected.

    Me- I have been in dozens of houses but I have never been in a house fire. I have a fire extinguisher though...

    Todd- That’s comparing apples and oranges. You can’t seriously compare guns and fire extinguishers! Lets be intellectually honest here.

    Me- You first.

    Todd- What’s that supposed to mean?

    Me- I mean you are being purposely obtuse in an effort to save face. You don’t want to admit that I am making sense. Admit it. You have been on the defense since the beginning of this conversation because you don’t have anything to say to refute my points. Your arguments are uninformed, and backed by emotion. Please don’t take this as an attack, I am not trying to be rude here. I am just trying to understand how we could possible be better off with out guns.

    Todd- I admit that I was not as prepared as I thought I was for this debate. I have to give you credit, you know your stuff but being good at debating doesn’t make you right.

    Me- Being right doesn’t hurt.

    Todd- Can we get back to the topic now?

    Me- Shoot.

    Todd- Guns are an instrument of destruction and devastation. Common sense provides that the less destruction and devastation we have at our disposal as a society, the better off we will be as a nation and a species. It is as simple as that. Can you explain to me how you could possible not understand that?

    Me- I am glad to see that you agree with me that a gun is an instrument. That is much better than earlier when you said they are evil and they kill people. I would say that we were making progress but then you followed that by rewording your original statement from the beginning of our conversation. Are you repeating yourself as a slip of the tongue or are you out of ideas and wish to rehash the entire debate?

    In answer to your question: This is how I can possible not understand that.

    Means to defend and kill have existed since Cain killed able with a rock. Technically before that since they were using something to butcher Able's sheep for food but I digress. The strong and wicked have always sought to over-power and lord over the weak. Before the invention of the gun there was little the weak could do but bow down or die. Then the Gun came along and changed everything. You have heard the saying "God made man, but Samuel Colt made them equal"? Now the weak have a way to fight against the strong. Suddenly a 100lb grandma can stand her ground against a 300lb attacker. That is amazing! The gun is a blessing from above! How many lives do you suppose the gun has saved? How many innocent people have been saved by the ability the gun gives to fight back? Has the gun been used for evil? Of course! The fact is that even if a bad guy has a gun, he still is only equal to the good guy with a gun. We are further protected by the fact that bad guys for the most part don't want to die anymore than the good guy does. Because of this, the evil ones will leave the armed ones in search of easier prey. Prey like you sir. Prey that believes the evil will never come and if it does the police and HIS gun will come to save you. Why did the killers of columbine stop killing and executed themselves? Because the guys with guns showed up. When the poo hits the fan who will protect you Todd? Will you be waiting for a policeman and his gun to save you? You should take charge of your own destiny and refuse to be a victim. Refuse to bow down and submit yourself to the evil when it is forced on you. The police cant be there to save our butt every time. Not even most of the time! They are only human. Humans with guns.

    If you won’t protect yourself then at least recognize others right to do so.

    Here are a few quotes for you:

    "Those that hammer their guns into plow’s, will plow for those that do not"
    - Thomas Jefferson

    "No law ever written has stopped any robber, rapist or killer, like the cold blue steel in the hands of their last intended victim."
    -W. Emerson Wright.

    "Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property... Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
    -Thomas Paine 1775

    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence ... From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to insure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable . . . the very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that is good"
    -George Washington

    "If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsel or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams


    And last but not least:

    "He who dares not offend cannot be honest."
    Thomas Paine (1737-1809)

    Todd- I don’t know what to say to you. You just don’t get it. You are so consumed with the belief that you are right that you can't even hear common sense.

    Me- I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree. Please, please think about what I have said.
    Thank you for the opportunity and please feel free to contact me anytime if you would like to continue this discussion.

    Todd- No problem. You do still intend to post this right? I just want to make sure you don’t feel like backing out since it didn’t turn out how you expected.

    Me- Oh I wouldn’t dream of it my friend. Actually it went exactly how I expected. Be safe Todd.

    Todd- Be good. Don’t shoot anyone :)
    This article was originally published in forum thread: Debate with an Anti-Gunner! started by Decline View original post
    Comments 3 Comments
    1. SkivMarine's Avatar
      SkivMarine -
      Little fella couldn't respond with anything but arguments based on emotion. You supplied facts that he found to be uncomfortable to his view of how the world should be. He didn't look at the world the way it REALLY IS.
      There really are dangerous people out there who would like to kill me. No reason for it, they just would want to do so. Does the term "9/11" ring a bell?
      If I have no way of defending myself other than calling for a Police Officer who might be 3 to 5 minutes away then I am going to be killed by that guy who wants to kill me. No ifs, ands, or buts.

      However; if I have a means to defend myself I stand a chance of saving my own life until the Police Officer can arrive to take the dirt bag who wants me dead into custody.
      Having a club would be good. Having a knife would be better. But in both cases I would have to actually get CLOSE to the bad guy in order to afford myself protection.
      A GUN, on the other hand, well I can maintain distance and still put a world of hurt on his a** if he continues to try to kill me after seeing that I'm holding a gun.

      There is no emotion in my argument. It is based in simple logic.
      But Todd's arguments take the form of; "if you don't have a weapon then nobody else will either". Or; "if we get rid of the guns all violence will stop." Or; "if we didn't have laws then there would be no reason to arrest somebody for doing anything bad."
      That's a good argument for koom ba yah night at the local coffee shop. But if a big a** M.F. by the name of Koom Ba Yah comes ditty bopping in to that same coffee shop and starts blasting away Todd's argument pretty much won't help anyone. Whereas my gun and I would.
    1. NWFFT's Avatar
      NWFFT -
      Great Debate...DECLINE YOU WIN! I am going to save this off for future reference!
    1. kenlefeb's Avatar
      kenlefeb -
      The funniest part was when he expressed his concern that you'd back out of your agreement to post it, since "it didn't turn out how you expected."

      Ha ha!

      I don't think he offered a single argument to defend his position. He only reiterated his position over and over again!

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