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  1. #1
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    Post Patron fires on armed robbers in internet cafe....

    This is a link from a Facebook posting via S.W.A.T. Magazine.
    I'm interested in our memberships thoughts....

    rkb

    http://www.ocala.com/article/2012071...nt02?p=1&tc=pg
    rkb


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    The punks are lucky to be alive! The patron who was the defender needs extensive more range time. Five pages in the article and no mention of the defender or any charges? LE must have concluded on the scene that is was a justifiable shoot.
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    ASD Senior Member Jim Trueblood's Avatar
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    Cool

    Would I pull my handgun to defend SOLELY a business' cash register, money, or property? In a nutshell, "NO!".
    Last edited by Jim Trueblood; 07-18-2012 at 11:01 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Trueblood View Post
    Would I pull my handgun to defend SOLELY a business' cash register, money, or property? In a nutshell, "NO!".
    Jim, I like your comment, but I fail to see the reason of your statement. The perp came into a business and pointed a gun at almost EVERYONE around....and the DA said that as of now NO charges would be filed as he did what he needed to do.
    This could be a good discussion!
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    ASD Senior Member Jim Trueblood's Avatar
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    I welcome disagreement. Deciding to launch bullets into human beings is a purely personal decision and my comment was a purely personal one.

    The patron defender did what was "legally justified", but I really don't know if he did what he "needed" to do. I'm happy for him that only the badguys took lead and things turned out as well as can be expected.......so far. I'm not saying what he did was wrong either. I'm just saying for me personally, I'd rather avoid a gunfight than win one.

    Peace.

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    Last edited by Jim Trueblood; 07-19-2012 at 07:08 AM.
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    Default The threat is good enough to get shot.

    To hear the perps talk about it, they make it sound more like a prank rather than a robbery even though the intent was pretty obvious .. not much for me to discuss, using a baseball bat to break a computer would get my undivided attention and pointing a gun at anyone would get my ammo supply ... I don't care what the intent of the perp was, simple robbery or not. I have too often talked with robbers who intended to rob but killed in the moment for lots of reasons and none of the reason very good in hindsight. I agree that I would not kill to protect money or property but I have no problem shooting anyone who brings deadly force to a simple property crime or robbery. It only takes a second to hit someone in the head with a bat or a bullet .. so the use of deadly force is inferred by bringing the deadly weapons out for a robbery, to say after the fact well we were not going to hurt anyone is just too late.
    what I don't understand is why the robbers were shot so non lethally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Trueblood View Post
    I welcome disagreement. Deciding to launch bullets into human beings is a purely personal decision and my comment was a purely personal one.

    The patron defender did what was "legally justified", but I really don't know if he did what he "needed" to do. I'm happy for him that only the badguys took lead and things turned out as well as can be expected.......so far. I'm not saying what he did was wrong either. I'm just saying for me personally, I'd rather avoid a gunfight than win one.

    Peace.

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    ...and his first shot, there were two ladies, one on each side between him and the perp and he shot between them...I consider his actions lucky at best.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bebo View Post
    To hear the perps talk about it, they make it sound more like a prank rather than a robbery even though the intent was pretty obvious .. not much for me to discuss, using a baseball bat to break a computer would get my undivided attention and pointing a gun at anyone would get my ammo supply ... I don't care what the intent of the perp was, simple robbery or not. I have too often talked with robbers who intended to rob but killed in the moment for lots of reasons and none of the reason very good in hindsight. I agree that I would not kill to protect money or property but I have no problem shooting anyone who brings deadly force to a simple property crime or robbery. It only takes a second to hit someone in the head with a bat or a bullet .. so the use of deadly force is inferred by bringing the deadly weapons out for a robbery, to say after the fact well we were not going to hurt anyone is just too late.
    what I don't understand is why the robbers were shot so non lethally.
    Nothing for me to say, you've said what I was thinking. +1
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    When I watched the video, I kind of had to chuckle just a bit, because to me it was quite obvious that these two miscreants were not there for ice cream & cake. They were wielding a pistol and a baseball bat and clearly displayed the intent to use those items against anyone who would not submit to their criminal demands.
    They were not counting on anyone in that internet cafe being armed and being able to protect themselves from any harm that the would-be robbers may have possibly inflicted on their victims. Kudos to the older gentleman for not becoming a victim and protecting himself, and in the course of the incident probably keeping any other potential victims in the cafe from being robbed and injured too!

    I do agree with NWFFT though, our defensive shooter could probably use a little bit more training in shooting skills, but overall he did exactly what most of us here would have done under the same circumstances, and was legally allowed to do due to have a Florida CCP for his own protection. Still, hats off to this good man for protecting himself like he did!
    Last edited by suncat05; 07-22-2012 at 07:05 PM. Reason: incorrect spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Trueblood View Post
    I welcome disagreement. Deciding to launch bullets into human beings is a purely personal decision and my comment was a purely personal one.

    The patron defender did what was "legally justified", but I really don't know if he did what he "needed" to do. I'm happy for him that only the badguys took lead and things turned out as well as can be expected.......so far. I'm not saying what he did was wrong either. I'm just saying for me personally, I'd rather avoid a gunfight than win one.

    Peace.

    The Dangers Of Intervention
    http://stoppingpower.net/commentary/comm_dangers_in_intervention.asp
    I'm with Jim on this one.

    There are several things to look for in something like this. Are they masked? They are potentially more dangerous if they fear later identification. Do they appear on drugs? Stop, look and evaluate. Erratic behavior is a danger sign. Do they want to take employees or civilians to another location? If at all possible, never allow this; probable intervention should be considered.

    I remember that the FNC had this video on at the time. I tape Fox and Friends to watch later, so I ran the clip back several times. Basically, I never second guess at Force on Force...... you just weren't there. Coaching....yes. Overall, I thought the shooter did a poor job after the first shot. One must remember the mission. Make the perp stop what he is doing and go away so no one will be hurt. The first shot had the perps moving to the door in a real hurry. Mission accomplished. Any shooting after that was not needed and very dangerous. I wonder what the court case would have looked like if an incoming customer would have been shot, or someone out on the street.

    There is nothing like a close call to make one study these things. I go to my bank almost every working day, and arrive there at 10:00am... you can almost set your watch by it. About 3 years ago, I got hung up in the office and arrived about 10:50. The place was alive. They'd had an armed robbery at 10:03. The two perps had escaped but no one was hurt. They caught the guys a day or so later.

    Under threat of being fired, the employees would never talk about the incident, although no one accused me of not trying. I've been banking there since 1979 and the manager and I helped open the branch. But.... she would not snitch me the details (yet). But probably 98% of my trips there have me observing the lobby and gaming the scene in case it ever happened again.

    Rossi

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