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  1. #1
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    Icon6 We have changed our minds

    After several professional training courses that my wife and I have attended in the last four years from instructors like: Suarez, Ayoob, Pincus, SIG Academy, and NRA, we have come to a roadblock in training vs. competition. After completing the Combat Focus Shooting (CFS) (Pincus) instructor course we believe that the competition shooting at IDPA is incongruent with the way the body and brain will work naturally during a dynamic critical incident (gun fight). IDPA is FUN, but not dedicated toward "REALISTIC" situations.

    I have much more explanation, but will leave it to answering question or observations about my statement....if anyone has any,

    If you agree...POST, if you disagree, PLEASE post.
    Retired USAF
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    I don't know enough about IDPA to have an opinion but I am interested in your thoughts.

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    ASD Senior Member Jim Trueblood's Avatar
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    Wink Train & Practice!

    I believe any and all training and practice is always worth the effort, especially for building fundamentals, mechanics, and muscle memory.

    Be careful not to lock yourself too rigidly in the training philosophy of any one instructor / training school. Every shooting instructor / school has a difference of opinion on almost everything firearms related. It can make you dizzy.

    Most everyday people who have successfully defended themselves with a firearm never attended a formal training course. The most recent example is the Sarah McKinley home invasion case.
    http://americansheepdog.com/Forum/sh...7925#post27925
    No exotic weaponry, no high-speed training, no combat schools attended. Just a woman whose husband taught her the FUNDAMENTALS and MECHANICS of how to load, point, aim, and shoot his 12-gauge shotgun. She didn't panic, she didn't freeze. She survived, she won. All this without the aid of ANY training philosophy. Imagine that.

    I believe any time you get to load, line up the sights, press the trigger, and HIT what you're aiming at, that's good practice. The problem is most shooters confuse practice with training. Practice is when you go and do what you've already been trained to do, so you can get good at the skills you already know. Training is the learning of some new, additional skills or techniques.

    If you carry / keep a firearm for self-defense, PRACTICE with it every chance you get. No matter what the course of fire is, just do it. And if you can train at a school or with an instructor, do that too. Don't worry too much about how realistic any particular training or practice is. The truth is, if there's no one shooting back at you, it isn't realistic at all.
    Last edited by Jim Trueblood; 01-09-2012 at 10:38 AM.
    "The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental."
    John Steinbeck





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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Trueblood View Post
    I believe any and all training and practice is always worth the effort, especially for building fundamentals, mechanics, and muscle memory.

    Be careful not to lock yourself too rigidly in the training philosophy of any one instructor / training school. Every shooting instructor / school has a difference of opinion on almost everything firearms related. It can make you dizzy.

    Most everyday people who have successfully defended themselves with a firearm never attended a formal training course. The most recent example is the Sarah McKinley home invasion case.
    http://americansheepdog.com/Forum/sh...7925#post27925
    No exotic weaponry, no high-speed training, no combat schools attended. Just a woman whose husband taught her the FUNDAMENTALS and MECHANICS of how to load, point, aim, and shoot his 12-gauge shotgun. She didn't panic, she didn't freeze. She survived, she won. All this without the aid of ANY training philosophy. Imagine that.

    I believe any time you get to load, line up the sights, press the trigger, and HIT what you're aiming at, that's good practice. The problem is most shooters confuse practice with training. Practice is when you go and do what you've already been trained to do, so you can get good at the skills you already know. Training is the learning of some new, additional skills or techniques.

    If you carry / keep a firearm for self-defense, PRACTICE with it every chance you get. No matter what the course of fire is, just do it. And if you can train at a school or with an instructor, do that too. Don't worry too much about how realistic any particular training or practice is. The truth is, if there's no one shooting back at you, it isn't realistic at all.
    I somewhat agree with Jim that training is worth the effort. If you are only practicing marksmanship, then slow and methodical training is good ...as long as you are training GOOD fundamentals.

    I will also agree with Jim that don't trust one sole instructor...putting an instructor or training program on a pedestal, will limit your training. You should integrate as many ideas as possible.

    However, if you are training against your body's natural reactions that WILL occur during a gun fight, your training is incongruent with what will happen during a gun fight and that alone will put you in a deficient position to defend yourself.

    People that have defended themselves without any training have gotten lucky. The more frequent and realistic you train with the response of being "startled" and encorporating what the body will most likely do naturaly, the better off you will be in defending a gun fight.
    Retired USAF
    NRA Certified Instructor (several disciplines)
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    barry@nwfft.com

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    Why the change of heart? Did something happen that makes you question the validity of the IDPA venue? I'd like to know as I've been considering trying it myself, just as a 'measuring stick' type of where my skill set is today, as opposed to where it needs to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suncat05 View Post
    Why the change of heart? Did something happen that makes you question the validity of the IDPA venue? I'd like to know as I've been considering trying it myself, just as a 'measuring stick' type of where my skill set is today, as opposed to where it needs to be.
    I've been shooting IDPA for over 10 years. The first six months my mantra was, "This is only a game." IDPA is a game and should not be confused with training. The rules, in order to level the playing field, are often contrary to good tactics. IDPA can be a very useful adjunct to your training. The added stress of competetion, the time clock, shooting with an audience, etc adds to the experience. The skills needed to sucessfully compete in IDPA can help you become a better shooter. Trigger time is always good. However, if you practice crap you become a "crap master." So you need to keep your worlds seperated.

    I have been fortunate to train with many excellent instructors, and as someone mentioned previously, they all have their own philosophy. I am a big fan of Rob Pincus, Mas Ayoob, and John Farnam but don't agree with them 100% of the time. I am on staff at Front Sight, and while there I teach the FS method. When I teach private lessons I let the student decide which method works best for them. There is no "one-size-fits-all" training method.
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    Icon6

    Quote Originally Posted by suncat05 View Post
    Why the change of heart? Did something happen that makes you question the validity of the IDPA venue? I'd like to know as I've been considering trying it myself, just as a 'measuring stick' type of where my skill set is today, as opposed to where it needs to be.
    Suncat,
    Read all the posts, especially mine and I think I explain my reason for IDPA well. If the posts do not clear it up, send me a PM or e-mail.
    Retired USAF
    NRA Certified Instructor (several disciplines)
    Combat FocusŪ Shooting Instructor
    Certified SIG Armorer
    ACLDN Affliated Instructor
    www.nwfft.com
    barry@nwfft.com

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